<div dir="ltr">I sometimes have that feeling, right after saying something blunt, going "Oh, I shouldn't have said that", or "Me and my big mouth". Now I see how that makes me bend over backwards to a prudish, thin-skinned and, if relevant, unscientific populace. It's an inner drive to self-censorship I should do away with. Of course, the consequence may be that I end up feeling pretty lonely. But the freedom of speech is at stake! If people don't like you because you don't give in to self-censorship, it's their fault! Yet, the outcome may be lonely...<div>
<br></div><div style>What the heck. Let's bend over backwards a little bit to those prudish, think-skinned and overall unscientific user base. Maybe we can teach them a thing or two with the other quotes...</div><div style>
<br></div><div style>T.</div><div style> </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:04 PM, ms <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:devicerandom@gmail.com" target="_blank">devicerandom@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">On 19/12/12 15:31, Lee-Ping Wang wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I agree with Michael that a moderate solution would best serve our<br>
collective motivations as developers and contributors.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Moderation, as an absolute concept, doesn't exist. Everything can be "extreme" or "moderate", depending on where you are in your opinions. I personally see this "moderate solution" as a rather extreme example of self-censorship.<div class="im">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I don't think free<br>
speech is the issue; rather, the main issue is that everything has<br>
consequences, and it's in our best interest to voluntarily avoid saying<br>
things that might endanger the important goal of having a broad and<br>
inclusive user base.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Gmx devels can do what they want, but I'd advice *against* bending over backwards to a prudish, thin-skinned and overall unscientific user base.<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
- Lee-Ping<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:gmx-developers-bounces@gromacs.org" target="_blank">gmx-developers-bounces@<u></u>gromacs.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:gmx-developers-bounces@gromacs.org" target="_blank">gmx-developers-<u></u>bounces@gromacs.org</a>] On Behalf Of Shirts, Michael<br>
(mrs5pt)<br>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:05 AM<br>
To: Discussion list for GROMACS development<br>
Subject: Re: [gmx-developers] FW: Gromacs quotes<br>
<br>
Just because one should be allowed to say something doesn't mean its a wise<br>
thing to say it. To take it to the extreme, if the quotes consisted of a<br>
string of expletives-laden insults, then one could understand how users<br>
might feel uncomfortable, and it would drive users away for no realistic<br>
purpose (at least, no purpose related to science).<br>
<br>
Self-censorship CAN be the worst kind of censorship, but filtering out what<br>
speech has the desired result and what speech is counterproductive is what<br>
allows people to actually interact with each other in a civil manner. It's a<br>
matter of whether one chooses not to say something out of fear, or because<br>
it's a counterproductive thing to say.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>
Michael Shirts<br>
Assistant Professor<br>
Department of Chemical Engineering<br>
University of Virginia<br>
<a href="mailto:michael.shirts@virginia.edu" target="_blank">michael.shirts@virginia.edu</a><br>
<a href="tel:%28434%29-243-1821" value="+14342431821" target="_blank">(434)-243-1821</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
From: ms <<a href="mailto:devicerandom@gmail.com" target="_blank">devicerandom@gmail.com</a>><br>
Reply-To: Discussion list for GROMACS development<br>
<<a href="mailto:gmx-developers@gromacs.org" target="_blank">gmx-developers@gromacs.org</a>><br>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:04:19 +0100<br>
To: <<a href="mailto:gmx-developers@gromacs.org" target="_blank">gmx-developers@gromacs.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [gmx-developers] FW: Gromacs quotes<br>
<br>
FWIW, I think no self censorship is in order, at all, and I'd be<br>
seriously disappointed if these suggestions are accepted.<br>
<br>
Quotes can be disabled by an environment variable, so it's not like<br>
they're forced down people's throat. If people *still* get offended at<br>
the quotes, they are welcome to use some other software. Self<br>
censorship is the worst kind of censorship, and everytime we abide to<br>
"sensitivity", we are disintegrating the right for freedom of speech.<br>
Everything is potentially offensive for someone. Given this logic, one<br>
day will we stop using evolutionary algorithms, for example, to avoid<br>
offending creationists? This may seem silly, but I'm sure it could happen.<br>
<br>
Since we talk of quotes, here's one by John Stuart Mill:<br>
<br>
"Strange it is that men should admit the validity of the arguments for<br>
free speech but object to their being "pushed to an extreme", not<br>
seeing that unless the reasons are good for an extreme case, they are<br>
not good for any case."<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 14/12/12 21:55, Shirts, Michael (mrs5pt) wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
FYI, from my student. We also have to turn these off in F@H to avoid<br>
complaints.<br>
<br>
Might it be time to retire the quotes? Do we feel it has that much of<br>
a purpose? I wonder if it's causing more trouble than it's worth . . .<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>
Michael Shirts<br>
Assistant Professor<br>
Department of Chemical Engineering<br>
University of Virginia<br>
<a href="mailto:michael.shirts@virginia.edu" target="_blank">michael.shirts@virginia.edu</a><br>
<a href="tel:%28434%29-243-1821" value="+14342431821" target="_blank">(434)-243-1821</a><br>
<br>
------ Forwarded Message<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
From: Joe Basconi <<a href="mailto:jbasconi@gmail.com" target="_blank">jbasconi@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:52:04 -0500<br>
To: <<a href="mailto:michael.shirts@virginia.edu" target="_blank">michael.shirts@virginia.edu</a>><br>
Subject: Gromacs quotes<br>
<br>
Prof. Shirts,<br>
<br>
Just wondering, what's the control process for the little gcq quotes<br>
Gromacs prints when you run a binary?<br>
<br>
Most are amusing but some seem to be in poor taste, especially on a<br>
day like today getting #239, "killing children... " by some software<br>
</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
company.<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Not sure how these are chosen, but would you feel comfortable<br>
putting in a word to get things like that out of there? I could<br>
email if that would be better.<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
Joe<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
------ End of Forwarded Message<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Massimo Sandal, Ph.D.<br>
<a href="http://devicerandom.org" target="_blank">http://devicerandom.org</a><br>
--<br>
gmx-developers mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:gmx-developers@gromacs.org" target="_blank">gmx-developers@gromacs.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.gromacs.org/mailman/listinfo/gmx-developers" target="_blank">http://lists.gromacs.org/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/gmx-<u></u>developers</a><br>
Please don't post (un)subscribe requests to the list. Use the www<br>
interface or send it to <a href="mailto:gmx-developers-request@gromacs.org" target="_blank">gmx-developers-request@<u></u>gromacs.org</a>.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
--<br>
gmx-developers mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:gmx-developers@gromacs.org" target="_blank">gmx-developers@gromacs.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.gromacs.org/mailman/listinfo/gmx-developers" target="_blank">http://lists.gromacs.org/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/gmx-<u></u>developers</a><br>
Please don't post (un)subscribe requests to the list. Use the www interface<br>
or send it to <a href="mailto:gmx-developers-request@gromacs.org" target="_blank">gmx-developers-request@<u></u>gromacs.org</a>.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Massimo Sandal, Ph.D.<br>
<a href="http://devicerandom.org" target="_blank">http://devicerandom.org</a><br>
-- <br>
gmx-developers mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:gmx-developers@gromacs.org" target="_blank">gmx-developers@gromacs.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.gromacs.org/mailman/listinfo/gmx-developers" target="_blank">http://lists.gromacs.org/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/gmx-<u></u>developers</a><br>
Please don't post (un)subscribe requests to the list. Use the www interface or send it to <a href="mailto:gmx-developers-request@gromacs.org" target="_blank">gmx-developers-request@<u></u>gromacs.org</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Tsjerk A. Wassenaar, Ph.D.<br><br>post-doctoral researcher<br>Biocomputing Group<br>Department of Biological Sciences<br>2500 University Drive NW<br>
Calgary, AB T2N 1N4<br>Canada<br>
</div>