<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Szilárd Páll <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:szilard.pall@cbr.su.se" target="_blank">szilard.pall@cbr.su.se</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Mark Abraham <<a href="mailto:mark.j.abraham@gmail.com">mark.j.abraham@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:20 AM, Szilárd Páll <<a href="mailto:szilard.pall@cbr.su.se">szilard.pall@cbr.su.se</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Mark Abraham <<a href="mailto:mark.j.abraham@gmail.com">mark.j.abraham@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Roland Schulz <<a href="mailto:roland@utk.edu">roland@utk.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Mark Abraham<br>
>> >> <<a href="mailto:mark.j.abraham@gmail.com">mark.j.abraham@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> >> wrote:<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Roland Schulz <<a href="mailto:roland@utk.edu">roland@utk.edu</a>><br>
>> >> > wrote:<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Mark Abraham<br>
>> >> >> <<a href="mailto:mark.j.abraham@gmail.com">mark.j.abraham@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> >> >> wrote:<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Manuel Nuno Melo<br>
>> >> >> > <<a href="mailto:m.n.melo@rug.nl">m.n.melo@rug.nl</a>><br>
>> >> >> > wrote:<br>
>> >> >> >><br>
>> >> >> >> Hi,<br>
>> >> >> >><br>
>> >> >> >> I have also had linking problems when making in parallel. In my<br>
>> >> >> >> case<br>
>> >> >> >> they<br>
>> >> >> >> could be traced back to the option to let GMX download/build its<br>
>> >> >> >> own<br>
>> >> >> >> fftw<br>
>> >> >> >> (-DGMX_BUILD_OWN_FFTW=ON).<br>
>> >> >> >><br>
>> >> >> >> It seems that only one of make's threads starts building fftw,<br>
>> >> >> >> while<br>
>> >> >> >> the<br>
>> >> >> >> others go ahead building/linking GMX. Since fftw compilation is<br>
>> >> >> >> not<br>
>> >> >> >> ready by<br>
>> >> >> >> the time it is needed, GMX linking is botched.<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > Yes, Rossen first showed this to me. I don't know if the<br>
>> >> >> > underlying<br>
>> >> >> > issue is<br>
>> >> >> > that the dependency cannot be described properly, or that we're<br>
>> >> >> > not<br>
>> >> >> > doing it<br>
>> >> >> > properly. If it's a problem, people are welcome to contribute a<br>
>> >> >> > fix!<br>
>> >> >> > :-)<br>
>> >> >> It was working in <a href="https://gerrit.gromacs.org/#/c/1675/12" target="_blank">https://gerrit.gromacs.org/#/c/1675/12</a>. You then<br>
>> >> >> changed how the dependency works in patch set 13. You never replied<br>
>> >> >> to<br>
>> >> >> Christophs comment why this was changed (at least I can't find a<br>
>> >> >> reply). Do you remember?<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > I couldn't remember, but gerrit can - I never published a series of<br>
>> >> > responses I made back then, sorry. Now published at<br>
>> >> > <a href="https://gerrit.gromacs.org/1675" target="_blank">https://gerrit.gromacs.org/1675</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> >> Otherwise I can change it back as 12 did it<br>
>> >> >> and it should work again.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > It might do, but as I said in those secret drafts the form of patch<br>
>> >> > 12<br>
>> >> > doesn't work on cmake 2.8.7 because of a bug there in<br>
>> >> > add_library(...GLOBAL)<br>
>> >> > (and I suspect is probably too global, anyway, but this probably does<br>
>> >> > no<br>
>> >> > harm?).<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > So I'm still not sure there's a convenient solution that works in all<br>
>> >> > cases.<br>
>> >> > Compromising the smooth running of a parallel make for someone<br>
>> >> > downloading<br>
>> >> > FFTW seems like the most low-impact problem of the set we could<br>
>> >> > choose<br>
>> >> > to<br>
>> >> > have.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Probably true. Just doesn't give a good first impression of us to new<br>
>> >> users.<br>
>> >> I think we should also consider for the future whether we really want<br>
>> >> to support ~11 unmaintained version of cmake (including for all our<br>
>> >> optional features). Downloading cmake is no big deal. They have<br>
>> >> binaries to download. And cmake doesn't fix any version but for the<br>
>> >> most recent version. So it seems odd that we try to maintain<br>
>> >> workarounds for the last ~11 versions which are all unmaintained by<br>
>> >> the cmake developers. That seems like it is going to stay a really<br>
>> >> annoying maintenance task.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > True. Now that we've shown it is a PITA for the developers to work<br>
>> > around a<br>
>> > handful of known issues with various 2.8.x point releases of CMake, it<br>
>> > sounds reasonable to me that we pick a late-model CMake 2.8.x as the<br>
>> > requirement for GROMACS 5. That could open the door to an alternative<br>
>> > implementation for self-built FFTW.<br>
>><br>
>> I agree that it is annoying having to work around CMake issues. At the<br>
>> same time, I think it would be a rather "user-unfriendly" move to<br>
>> require a very late version of CMake. As a user, it is fair to expect<br>
>> that building GROMACS is as hassle-free as possible.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Right. But I think all of the CMake issues have arisen while trying to make<br>
> building GROMACS as hassle-free as possible. Here are just some of the known<br>
> issues:<br>
> 1) we need something in 2.8.2 in order to download the regression tests via<br>
> CMake<br>
> 2) 2.8.10 updated FindCUDA and changed the behaviour with respect to setting<br>
> the host compiler for nvcc<br>
> 3) 2.8.8 provides CMAKE_<LANG>_COMPILER_VERSION, for which we currently<br>
> provide duplicate functionality in at least two places; this is mostly used<br>
> for supporting tests for known versions of compilers that have missing or<br>
> broken functionality<br>
> 4) we sometimes fall back on finding MPI, which didn't work well before<br>
> 2.8.5 (and find_file() has a minor bug that was fixed in 2.8.10)<br>
> 5) can't check an MD5 sum of the downloaded FFTW library before 2.8.3<br>
> 6) one way to link the downloaded FFTW library doesn't work on 2.8.7<br>
> Those are all things that we are trying to do to make a hassle-free GROMACS<br>
> build experience. In some of the above cases we issue a fatal error and<br>
> suggest a CMake upgrade anyway.<br>
><br>
> The principle has led the GROMACS devs to do a whole pile of "extra" work<br>
> implementing those checks, and future work reading and maintaining that<br>
> code. This is not sustainable. For GROMACS 4.6, we compromised on CMake 2.8<br>
> between developer convenience and the possibility users would not need to<br>
> install cmake, which we did before realising we'd be encouraging about half<br>
> the users to update to a real compiler. Getting cmake at the same time is<br>
> not a big deal. Requiring 2.8.10 for GROMACS 5 lets get rid of a lot of<br>
> nonsense and go back to writing MD code.<br>
<br>
</div></div>I do agree with you to a fairly large extent. However, most of the<br>
above workarounds are meant to support non-essential features, so<br>
either a warning (e.g. "skipping consitency check because CMake<br>
version <2.8.X") or in other cases a fatal error (e.g. "Insufficient<br>
CMake version for feature X") would be just fine instead of *<br>
hardcoded* very recent required version which would prevent users from<br>
building even if they don't use the feature which requires a late<br>
CMake version. Regarding points 2 and 3, those are good examples of<br>
minor feature additions which we could have chosen to ignore and stick<br>
to the legacy behavior, but we did not.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>We currently offer the user the choice of "update CMake and have all the convenient features if you want them" or "don't update CMake 2.8.x and maybe have to make decisions later." Different people will have different preferences there! :-)</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Additionally, having seen the development style of CMake, coming<br>
across issues which need workarounds on our side seems unavoidable. As<br>
it happened with 4.6, issues will come up during development or<br>
(beta/RC) testing of a release. With the above reasoning, we'd have to<br>
bump the required version quite a few times just to avoid<br>
complications. Instead, Instead I prefer to fix a moderately<br>
conservative required version during the development phase of a<br>
certain release and stick to that.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Nobody is suggesting having a rolling requirement. I think we're talking about what choice to make for our next major release. So far the leading suggestions on functionality seem to be 2.8.8 or 2.8.10.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">
><br>
>> Hence, having to<br>
>> download CMake as a first step of the installation process will<br>
>> probably lead to many users not updating (early) to newer GROMACS<br>
>> versions.<br>
><br>
><br>
> I'd much rather spend devs time writing documentation of their awesome new<br>
> features, so that users know they can do cool science with the new version<br>
> if they get a new CMake version (which they might re-use anyway). The needs<br>
> of the few and the needs of the many are being traded off here. It's not<br>
> like we're charging money selling shrink-wrapped software. :-)<br>
><br>
>> In general, the issue is the way CMake development introduces changes<br>
>> in minor versions which affect behaviour. This can easily break<br>
>> fragile code in the build system. I don't have a good suggestion to<br>
>> overcome such problems, but I think that the choice of required<br>
>> minimum CMake version should depend on what versions provide the major<br>
>> Linux OS-es.<br>
><br>
><br>
> RHEL ships with a 2.6 (which drives CentOS and Scientific Linux). EPEL<br>
> provides a 2.8.9, though.<br>
> Current Ubuntu LTS (precise) has 2.8.7, but the next looks like it would<br>
> have at least 2.8.11. Current stable has 2.8.10.<br>
> Fedora 19 has 2.8.10.<br>
> macports has 2.8.10<br>
<br>
</div>12.04 LTS will be around at least until 2015 and many users will stick<br>
to it (like we do on all our compute and development machines).<br>
<br>
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating sticking to the currently<br>
required v2.8.0, but I'd prefer to be more conservative and require a<br>
version at least 1.5-2 years old, e.g. 2.8.8 or 2.8.7 (to cater for<br>
12.04 LTS).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>2.8.10 was out in October 2012. By the time a hypothetical 2.8.10 requirement hits users (February 2014) it will be 15 months old. That seems acceptable to me, but so far there's only a minor relevant difference known (FindCUDA update, which we could back-port if we wanted). Having the reliable compiler version-checking functionality in 2.8.8 seems to me much more important than supporting a particular distro's LTS with 2.8.7.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Mark</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Cheers,<br>
--<br>
Szilard<br>
<div class="im HOEnZb"><br>
> So it seems to me that requiring CMake 2.8.10 for a Feb 2014 release is<br>
> quite reasonable.<br>
><br>
> Mark<br>
><br>
</div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">> --<br>
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